debate-points, christianity1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
You could say: “Stop. God made me an Atheist. Who are you to question his judgment?”
Seriously, you should not argue with believers, especially not the kind who would quote the Bible as a proof.
The claim that we “cannot understand God’s wisdom” should be met with, “Well, how do you know that you’ve arrived at a good conclusion, then? How do you know you should follow ANY of what you read in the Bible? I mean, either you can read, interpret and understand God’s wisdom, or you can’t.
“Isn’t it absurd to only say you can’t understand God’s wisdom in those situations where evidence exists that would make you drop your belief in God?” Then, couldn’t it be possible that the phrases “we can never know God’s mind” or “Well, The Lord works in mysterious ways” are just conversational derailleurs designed to prevent you from thinking about the issue?
Really, think about it… who TOLD YOU you can’t understand God’s wisdom? It’s not something you “know”; it’s something you’ve been TOLD.
The person will likely NOT relent on their biblical reliance, but it’s worth a shot at planting the “meme” that “You just believe what you’ve been told, and even in those cases you use your own discretion to decide which portions of what you’ve been told you will accept and follow. YOU are making the choices… it doesn’t require understanding of “God’s intent.”
[edit]I’ve called this type of argument a conversational “derailleur” or “circuit breaker,” but it can also be seen as a face-saving, pressure release valve which (and here’s the important point) allows a believer to avoid going where they do not want to go. The issues, conundrums, and uncertainties that we atheists are “vaguely” comfortable living with are (in the mind of the believer) a painful excavation that they see no value in digging. They are reminders of how little they actually know or understand about the beliefs they CLAIM to prize so dearly. They often prefer to let sleeping dogmas lie. (Ooh… I have to copyright that one, unless I’m subliminally plagiarizing already.)
So, these “relief valves” or “circuit breakers” allow the faithful to preserve their beliefs, save face by not having to reveal how poorly they would argue rationally, and are a shortcut to staying on the track they prefer: living their day to day life on cruise control…doing all the things we hairless apes enjoy doing. Almost the only time they will confront a belief is in times of chaos, turmoil or tragedy… exactly the time when rational thought will not be allowed on the table, and the believer will cling even MORE stridently to what they already believe.
If they mean that humans can’t understand God’s wisdom, then why does this person walk around pretending to have some insight?
Is God’s wisdom simply unknown? Then we should try to figure it out using reason & evidence.
Or is God’s wisdom actually unknowable? Then we might as well discard it as a topic for consideration and discussion.
Not the best answer but walk away after thanking the person for the discussion, either you have planted a seed or the ground is infertile.
Okay, I agree that we cannot understand Him. But that doesn’t prove anything. It doesn’t prove that he may be right, or whatever either discussion parties are trying to prove.
Why respond at all? The reaction of the Christian in this particular debate is effectively a debate-ender. He has nothing more to say and yet will not give up his position, a more polite way of telling you to, um, fornicate with yourself.
Just walk away with the satisfaction of knowing you won.
“God exist becouse the bible says so, and the bible is true becouse God wrote it”… that kind of circular referenced mind is not worth the time to argue with. Try using a contradicting bible quote (if you are really trying to piss someone off)
=)
If the argument is “a finite mind cannot understand an infinite mind,” then the retort is that no one - not even God - can know whether He indeed has an infinite mind.
It’s impossible for a non-omniscient being to distinguish between very knowledgeable and omniscient. Even if God is the most knowledgeable being that exists and know the answer to every single question you might possibly ask, that does not mean He is omniscient. That just mans god is very knowledgeable.
If God is not omniscient, then you can criticize him because that mean he can be wrong. It’s no longer an infinite mind versus a finite mind. It’s two finite minds, and finite minds can be wrong.
To put this into a syllogism:
As a Christian I can say that it’s very easy for us to get caught up in topics like this… we tend to think if we can out debate you then we win… that’s not what it’s about. It’s about showing God’s love and mercy. Jesus Christ’s ministry was led not by debating, but by showing love to others. Sometimes in debates Christians need to be reminded of this… I know I do.
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